A charter is a given. It’s the very definition of what the guild is.

What do you expect people to review at a meeting in order to approve of said institution?

Hence why its been held up repeatedly. - Also because those would-be guild members find it difficult to come to some sort of accord on how things should be. We get a taste of that every time the subject is mentioned.

Because a guild (any type - brewing or otherwise) appeals to a smaller segment of the membership, its expected that those who wish to form one would get together as a committee of their own outside a clan meeting to iron out a proposal and spare the rest of the group the haranguing and avoid eating up meeting time where more “globally” pertinent business needs tending to.

If would-be guild members can’t find the time or interest to set aside for such a meeting, what point in organizing a craft at all?

In the case of brewing, people brew without a guild already. However, if such a guild forms, there is some sort of expectation (perhaps misconception) that all who brew should be part of it. Yet, the population of brewers has yet to come to together on the points of its organization and it may be impossible for them to do so, for which, other options yet to be explored have yet to be considered, such as two competing guilds in the same craft or people just coming to terms and being content to do their own thing without the “hassle” of a formal guild structure or commitment.

Status gets conferred on members of a guild. Because a guild is semi-autonomous in its administration, the clan wants to know what justifies that status and how it will be nurtured and safe guarded so that the status it confers does not become meaningless. Its not going to write a sub-population a blank check in that regard.

A charter is further necessary to outline to others what they might be getting into and what would be expected of them as well as designate possible guild meeting times so that people have a fair chance to attend and participate.

That’s not spelled out in our laws, no, but then again, a Celt says little and leaves a lot to be understood.

In ancient times Guilds were formed by artisans in order to support each other as sort of a union. Nothing in our current law codifies any kind of monopoly or exclusive rights for Guilds, and instead actually stipulates an additional requirement for the production of a craft (over and above anything required by normal membership). Additional "honors" as afforded by the laws are not defined and so are presumed to be non-material. A charter is certainly not "a given" in my opinion, and that carries some weight since as Fili it my job at some level to interpret the laws through the lens of Clann history.

In a sense, the musical group that sprung up from members in the Clann and has given public performance for several years is a "Bardic College" of sorts (though not a Clann approved one), and operates perfectly well without a formal charter.

The laws specifically state that:

"Each Guild or College shall be governed by a guild master , who is the proven best craftsman in his field, and advances period studies by working as closely to the period methods of his craft as possible." (emphasis mine)

This would seem to indicate that a charter is not necessary, and that the guild master would be in charge of the running of the guild.

Membership & membership eligibility for a guild is also specifically defined in law:

"A Ceird/Scolaire must be a Clan member and either elected to the position by the Clan or by the Ceirds/Scolaires of that Guild or College."

As I read the existing law the Clann as a whole only has to agree by 2/3 vote on the formation of the Guild, and initially appointments to the guild should be made by the clan as a whole, since there would be no guild members to approve new members to the guild.

The laws do not set out any requirements for educational endeavors, group ventures or even meetings other than an annual demonstration of the guild members craft at Imbolc. I do not believe that it is the business of the clan to dictate the details of the policies and function of a guild as long as this requirement for an annual presentation is being met. I believe the guild should be a self-governing body. Those actually practicing the craft are better qualified to determine how the guild should run than the clan as a whole.

The matter of the formation of a brewers guild has been held up a long time on a point of law - which actually turns out to be an "unwritten" point of law. Either the law needs to be clarified and amended through proper channels, or the formation of the brewers guild must be allowed to proceed.

I guess the difference between the music group and a clan recognized guild would be that there would be some kind of status to being a guild member ond more to being the guild master. (ahem, Sabha, ahem) :) Not that this guild status has any "real" purpose other then just another way of playing the hobby.

Does the charter have to be written out with every detail laid out ahead of time? I don't think so. Should the clan "get" something for recognizing such a guild? I think so. The sugestion of guild members each providing something for an anual clan auction is a perfectly fine payment for this recognition.

My opinion is that the brewer's guild for our clan is way over due. Let's not drag it out any more just for paperwork.

Well… let me tell you first off

The fili’s opinion holds no more weight than anyone elses. The weight of your opinion is by virtue of who you are not what office you hold in democratic debate. If we are going to play that game, should I list the reasons why I think my opinion is awesome? That could take months.

You want to talk histororicity? I was there and I think I even wrote most of the law. I don’t need anyone to interpret my own history to me. Thanks.

Puffery and posturing aside, let attempt a bit of clarity here…

“Additional "honors" as afforded by the laws are not defined and so are presumed to be non-material.”

Patently incorrect.

Members of a college of a guild are given status by way of honor price.

I can also tell you... that the laws posted on the web site are incorrect and/or incomplete in that regard and it looks to me like a spell checker is at fault.

Note the phrase:
“1. A guild master who is also a noble is deemed a Sao re Ceird and entiteld to addition honors for advancing both his craft and general period atmosphere.”

“Addition honors”? That’s not even grammatically correct. If memory serves, that’s supposed to be “additional honor-price.” Both there and elsewhere in that section.

Also note that this particular bit is tied in with the noble concept, which is a definition by honor price.

I also checked the honor price sheet… I saw no entry for ceird/ scholaire. Im pretty sure there used to be one. Quite frankly, I think we had a flat rate bonus, but their was some talk about adjusting it based on historical fact on a given profession. Of that I cant specifically recall. I do know that at one point things were overhauled and it looks to me like something got swept away that upheld another part of the laws.

Some fili, I don’t know who, should be embarrassed. Especially if its one that would deign throw their weight around on being guardian and interpreter of law. And I just hope its not my fault, though there is fair chance it may be.

If there is no honor price conferred on guild members… then hey... free for all who cares. Why do you even need the clans recognition as a guild?
But that isn’t in the historical spirit either.

And another thing… this has not been held up by anyone other than the brewers themselves and their failure to come to any accord and present something tangible to the clan. This has happened so much... that one of our chiefs ( I don’t recall who, might have been me) actually DECREED that it would not be brought up as old business again because the prattle and arguing of the brewers was taking away from clan meeting time. They repeatedly brought the topic up and never settled on ANYTHING.

This aint the man bringing you down, or result of some obscure technicality or red tape. IT’S THE BREWERS.

Either you folk have not been listening to each other or are forgetful. Even at this very past meeting, as Colin mentioned some ideas... they were immediately poo-pooed and counter proposed by at least one person. The brewers are not in accord. What person’s version of a brewers guild is the clan to sanction? We arent even formally given two competeing sets of ideas to choose from, just chaos.

The clan as a whole does not want to interfere with the working of a guild, which is why it is the way it is... it IS supposed to be largely on its own. But the clan is not going to say “Oh you want to be a guild ok here ya go” without a document or set of principles that you can be tied to.

The clan laws only mention the briefest requirements... This was in effect a proto-charter and starting point… the rest is up to the prospective guild.
I will refer you to the legend of two poets who vied to be the chiefs top filidh, they both competed in poetry in the secret language of the poets thus no one was able to judge the contest and declare a winner. The chief decreed that the secret language of the poets was no longer to be used in such competitions.

Now... as far as the guild master being the proven best? How is that defined exactly? Through a charter maybe? Laying out transparent guidelines? To avoid popularity contests and personality conflicts and politicizing (as futile as that may be they should at least try). Same principle as the legend stated above.

Yes... the clan set itself up to declare these things initially to help a guild get going. But the clan also wants to know how you plan on sustaining it after the initial push.

There are a few contenders for the head of such a guild... and what a few of may consider to be a foregone conclusion is in fact, not. Work that out amongst yourselves.

It doesn’t have to be the Magna Charta as Guthrum said... but get together and present SOMETHING people can work with. And so far… that has not been done.. all that has been said over and over is “I want a guild I want a guild!”

Now as far as the clan having no business in how things are run… I can give you examples from my own experiences where even strong mandates are reversed. So keep that in mind too.

But my advice to you brewers, get together. Draw something up. Make sure you get every potential brewer involved or at least get their input. Come to a democratic agreement. Give the clan something tangible to vote on.

Now hey... that’s not in the laws requiring you to do that... but it would seem like common sense to me.

On the other hand, if Colin singlehandedly comes up with a proposal for a guild and it’s approved… (as unlikely as that may be given the double interest of clan member and prospective brewers) there is no law saying he can’t do that either.

I personally don’t give a damn about brewing. I am not opposed to a brewers guild, though I do perhaps think to much emphasis is placed on alcohol already. But I think it is unfair of the brewers to repeated come to a meeting and ask for something that they themselves have not yet taken the time or necessary steps to define.

It is unreasonable to place strictures on the formation of a guild if they are not codified into law first. Plain and simple the laws require a 2/3 vote. If you want a charter first, change the law. We cannot be expected to rely on or always defer to someone's memory of the "intentions" of the law makers. We can only be bound by what has been handed down as written law. What is to say that after presentation and acceptance of a valid charter, then some other "common sense" idea isn't raised to again hold up the guild?

I also find it interesting that the only mention of a charter currently in the laws is under the household section and that charter does not need the approval of the clan. That charter is submitted for approval only to the Chieftan, Fili and Druid to see that it does not conflict with clann law.

Now, I am not saying that the guild should not develop a charter, but let interested brewers form the guild, decide on their goals and how to achieve them and present them to the clan. You don't set up a government before you have a nation to govern.

Aonghus is clearly reading some kind of arrogance into my statement that was certainly not intended. I would remind him that I do currently hold the position of Fili and have a significantly higher 'honor price' because of that responsibility (granted upon me by the Clann). This means, among other things that insulting me publicly might prove more costly than insulting a Fuidir if I were to decide for instance, to sue for Log na Enech (and win). But that is all part of the game we play, and I would gently remind all that the laws were crafted partially to ensure that we have an accurate historical framework to work in as we play our respective parts.

I have copies of nearly all the versions of the Law as they were changed over time in part because I've always thought our Laws were worth keeping, but mostly because I've always done regular backups ;) I can confirm that there was indeed a Sao re Ceird/Scolaire in the laws that I brought back from Rutager (remember that fiasco?) at 14 cows, and a "Recognized Practitioner" gained +1 (cow, I presume) and that this information is not in the copy of the 2004 laws I have from when Brogan was Fili. Unless there is some good reason why this was removed (perhaps the title didn't mean what we thought it meant and was changed?) we can take action at the next meeting and get it back in.

Oh, and whats the current cow to coin exchange rate? :)

And I suppose the tone of this wasn’t meant to be patronizing, condescending nor a mild threat of retaliation?

You are absolutely right, I do read arrogance in your statement.

If you did not intend to be arrogant, and for one whose position is the supposed embodiment and sole of eloquence, perhaps you should chose your words and present yourself with a bit more care.

You could have easily stated your case without trying to bolster your argument based on rank or giving that impression by letting it simply stand on its own merit.

Your words and actions are your responsibility, not mine.

But I will take full responsibility for my own self, so if you think you have a case… I would encourage you to peruse it. I’m not the least bit unnerved, threatened or daunted.

As a matter of fact, I would welcome the opportunity to clear the air between us and teach you the fullness of the transgressions, insult, and hypocrisy you have offered me as of late as both a clan member and as a friend.

I will gather up my silver and I suggest you have a heavy sack of silver as well just in case things don’t go the way you expect them to.

I won’t make idle or veiled threats of action or need the chief to call for personal business four times to present my case.

You, Comyn, are hereby given formal notice that I am taking suit against you.

At a time convenient to all parties, we will sit and discuss the matter. As a lack of agreement between us on the transgression is likely, I will ask the clan druid to be in attendance for convenience of judgment and to avoid the necessity of a second meeting. I would like the chief there as witness.

I can come and fast on your stoop if you wish, or we can agree upon more comfortable neutral ground. I propose a middle weekend in January so as to resolve the matter after the holidays but before Imbolc.

Way to stay on topic.

I guild is a self governing body. If the guild says that it will only brew fruit wine, well that's the guild's business. If the guild says the one with the biggest hat gets to run the guild meeting, the clan has nothing to say about it. All the clan has to say is if it is recognizing the guild or not. Now if to get that recognition it takes a formal written out detail of how it will be run, that remains to be seen. One man's vote up or down is not a deal breaker.

As for the disagreements among the brewers as to how a guild should be run, I'm not seeing a big problem. I imagine that knowing the clan brewers involved, of which neither Aonghus nor Comyn is a part, all internal disagreements will be handled with the slightest of problems.

As a non brewer, Aonghus, I don't think you need to concern yourself with the goings on of a guild. You have enough on your plate, being sick and all.

Thankfully, Guthrum, its not your place to tell me what to concern myself with, but your dissmisveness is noted.

Does brewing iced tea count? If so, im a shoe-in.

Or perhaps you forget me standing next to you when the three teired brewing system was built? Or not mark my attendance when it was fired up for the first time and helping to brew its first batches? Or at your house in Baldwin or Patchogue for mead making nights?

Since their is no defining guild charter I may as well consider myself a brewer.

And what prey-tell you gonna do if I suddeny do take a "real" interest in brewing? Or is this a private and exclusive club?

Let me sum up the real points easy:

The delay of this definition has not been on some technicality, its been due to a lack of cohesion amoungst the would-be practitioners failing to either reach an accord or put the effort in to build a consesus amoung themselvs. Proof of such exhibited again at last meeting. Thats not a leagal point. Thats historical fact. And thats a brawl I have no concern or stake in beyond a basic concern for my fellow clan members and thier fair treatment.

I challenge your assumption that dissagreements will be settled with the slightest of problems based on thier track record thus far. Thats not a legal point either. Nor is it me dictaing to would be brewers what they must do. Thats me calling your assumption naieve and seemingly oblivious to the past or not truly understanding what the sticking points have been.

Here are the Legal points:

The guild needs a definition so it can be voted on.

There is a problem with the laws as posted. Somethign is either wrong or missing. But with that acknoledgement and pending further review of the anomoly:

The concept of a TdB guild was for those who practice a historically justifiable trade to organize and commit to contunually enhance the period atmosphere of the TdB by way of thier trade. In exchange for that commitment the clan would elevate those participants with an increase in honor price.

The nessesity of the charter is not only a definition but also a standard the clan can hold by in order to justify that elevation in status and ensure that honorprice remains a meaingfull and important institution, since it is in effect giving a minority commitee the ability to elevate a persons honor.

THAT is the historical interpetation and practical application thereof.

Since the laws are currently flawed with a possible ommision and / or oversight, No such raise in honor price is currently prescribed, merely hinted at, there is an issue.

If you want to keep in the spirit of history, it needs to be fixed. If you dont want to keep in the spirit of history, it doesnt really belong in the clan anyway and you can go do as you please without the clans involvement wich may be easier on all parties anyway.

On the other hand, if you want the recognition of the clan, it comes at a price in just the same or similar way that every clan elevation in status is tied to.

There is nothing stoping anyone from persuing brewing at the moment. A clan recognized guild is not needed to do so. Nor is formal recognition nessasary for people to bandie together to brew or be generally apriciated for thier craft.

Opinion:

Without a definition, and with the flaw in in the law, people are attempt to prop up on what is essentially a meaningless label. Perhaps in a way similar, Guthrum, that you got hung up on this threads title and made your obnoxious comment without full undestanding of the scope of discussion.

I object to the clans endorsement, consideration, or recognition of a meaningless label in this regard. Breweres guild, woodworkers guild, nit pickers guild or otherwise.

Give it meaning. Give it a good solid meaning with content and definition, and my objection on those grounds is lifted.

A study of the rules for Guilds as defined by the SCA Kingdoms of the East and the Midrealm might be worthwhile.

East Kingdom Laws, see Section G
http://www.eastkingdom.org/law-policies.html - click the first link "East Kingdom Law" (DOC)

Midrealm Minister of Arts and Sciences Officer's Handbook
http://www.midrealm.org/moas/handbook.html - See chapter 10 entitled Guilds (PDF)

I spent the past 15-20 minutes reading over the disscusion/debate over the formation of a brewers guild.
And I observed that the debate became quite heated and some clann members feel that they were met with hostility for their input.
At the meetings I have attened the brewers guild has been brought up numerous times.
I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for a brief outline of what the guilds goals,objectives,hiearchy,structure excetera will be.
Is this neccesssary to the clann? A well thought out proposal would be very much desirable so that we as a clann could have some inkling of what we are voting on.
The guild could try to pass this vote 2/3 without giving any set plan of what they intened to do,but it has not happened thus far.
I will be available to clann members who feel they have been slandered.
We could do this outside this electronic medium and confer face to face as the celts would have done.
Any clann member can reach me thru my cell phone

Always in the service of the clann
Vollund