I think there are a few related issues we're mixing.
1) Is the crwth period for 5th C. Ireland? Possibly. But the evidence is through contact and association, not directly verifiable.
2) Is that good enough for TdB? Yes.
3) Is providing music with non-period instruments to retain spirit of the event important and allowable for Tdb? Yes.
You don't have to defend/rationalize/explain #2 and 3. It's your (collective) group and it's up to them, not me, to decide what anachronisms are allowable. We ALL have them and we all HAVE to have them since there are gaps in our modern knowledge.
I was mostly interested in the answers to #1.
Re: the Lute, yes if you play Classical or Celtic Fingerstyle guitar picking up the lute should be pretty quick and easy. In fact, I play several of the tunes Luthval has on YouTube as Classical guitar pieces. It's great to hear them played by someone else; he's a good player.
Now, the harp (the simple 6-8 string) is easy to play too. Since it uses a similar fingering technique as Classical guitar. I've been tempted to "cheat" and make a 9 string harp tuned to "A" so it can play pipe tunes with no modifications.
Crwth Questions
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Use this forum to discuss topics of history or craft as related to our hobby.
As this is a PUBLIC forum, be discrete! Private matters should be discussed in the TdB Member forums!
Any post which is deemed too sensitive for public consumption may be moved to the Private Discussions forum by Moderators.
Re: Crwth Questions
Yup, we're about 8-10 miles due West of Hoosick Falls. With any luck in the next few years, we'll have a roundhouse built in that area. One of our members has hundreds of acres and is keen to put one up. This is also where we've been getting the wood for our projects. Heh, now that I think of it, it's also where we got clay, bog iron and stone.
Though, even without a friend with land, there's plenty of available natural resources if you ask around. I'm sure it's the same in VT.
Though, even without a friend with land, there's plenty of available natural resources if you ask around. I'm sure it's the same in VT.
Re: it's suggestive
Well…Comyn wrote:Aonghus might be able to provide some better information...
Period instruments are not my (Mezzo) Forte. I can’t speak specifically, about the crwth in question. ( I’ll check one of my sources and get back)
However, as to policy of historic accuracy:
We certainly strive towards as authentic an experience as possible. However, resources are often limited and creative compromises are made.
As standard in archeological research, whenever a “hole” or deficiency is encountered in composing a complete cultural survey of what was, nearby and related cultures are sought out to fill the gaps.
Various members in the group have different levels of how close to authentic they wish to persue and are allowed a certain degree of freedom, though we expect a base line standard, we "encourage" more than "enforce" per se, through our use of the honor price system and recognizing strong effeorts in those areas.
Personally, I would love a more European historical re-enactmet standard, but, as all things its a cost-benefit analisis, as I'm sure we are all too familiar with. Its ever a process and always a new project on the horizon :-)
Crwth Truth?
The following falls short of hard evidence as its not concrete (Wartons comments are Un-provenanced as they say in archeology i.e. not dated) and does not mention just how early the Welsh connection is. Though we know the Irish were setting up colonies and small kingdoms in Wales during the 5th cent.
Still you may find it of interest and I think it the best my library can come up with on the subject.
While the modern Irish word for the harp is “clairsech”, “Cruit” is the old Irish word for it. Note the etymological similarities between the Irish word “cruittera” and Welsh “crwthr”.
Cruittera is made from two root words “Cruit” and “aire”. Aire basically meaning “one who tends to or oversees” This is the same “aire” that give us “Boaire” – cattle lord, and “Airechta” – lord of vengeance.
These pages are scanned excepts from P.W. Joyce’s “A social History of Ireland” pgs 573 – 580 - this was quickly OCRd so there are likely to be typos.
Warton, in his” History of English Poetry.” says :—“ There is sufficient evidence to prove that the “Welsh bards were early connected with the Irish. Even “so late as the eleventh century the practice continued “among the Welsh bards of receiving instruction in the “bardic profession [of poetry and music] from Ireland.” The Welsh records relate that Gryffith ap Conan, king of Wales, whose mother was an Irishwoman, and who was himself born in Ireland, brought over to Wales—about the year 1078—a number of skilled Irish musicians, who, in conference with the native bards, reformed the instrumental music of the Welsh.
But the strongest evidence of all—evidence quite conclusive as regards the particular period—is that of Giraldus Cambrensis, who seldom had a good word for anything Irish. He heard the Irish harpers in 1z85, and gives his experience as follows :
vol. r., Diss. i. Harris’s Ware, Antiqq., 124.
The Irish had a small stringed instrument called a Timpan, which had only a few strings—from three to eight. It was played with a bow, or with both a bow and plectrum, or with the finger-nail; and the strings were probably stopped with the fingers of the left hand, like those of a violin or guitar. That the bow was used in playing it appears evident from a short quotation from the Brehon Laws given by O’Curry, in which it is stated that the timpanist used “a [bended] wand furnished with hair” and he gives another quotation (p. 364) that plainly points to the use of the finger-nail. This little instrument was evidently a great favourite, for we constantly meet with such expressions as the” sweet-stringed timpan.” Giraldus mentions the harp and the timpan by the names “ cithara” and” tympanum” : but the timpan is noticed in two native authorities much older: Cormac’s Glossary and Saltair na Rann. From the explanation of the name given by Cormac (p. 163), we see that the frame—like that of the harp—was made of willow, and that it had brass strings.
The instrument usually denoted—outside Ireland— by the Latin tympanum, or in its shortened form tympan, we know was a drum of some sort: and to Irish antiquarians it has been a puzzle how the word came to be applied in Ireland to a stringed instrument. Probably the Irish timpan was really a small flat tympanum or drum, with a short neck added, furnished with three or more strings, stretched across the flat face and along the neck, and tuned and regulated by pins or keys and a bridge—something like the modern guitar or banjo, but with the neck much shorter. The drum—with a few small openings in the side-—gave resonance ; and probably
• Er. Laws, v. 107, bot. t Man. & Cust., II. 363.
during the playing, the body, or the stretched membrane of the drum, was struck now and then with the hand, as players now occasionally strike the body of the guitar so that to some extent it still preserved the character of a drum. There can be hardly a doubt that Giraldus’s tympanum” was the Irish timpan ; and he would scarcely have given it that name unless it was really a drumshaped instrument—a drum furnished with neck and strings.
There was a small harp called a ceis [kesh], which was used to accompany the ordinary harp, and which will be again mentioned farther on (p. 587). On one panel of the north high cross of Castledermot is a figure seated playing on a small harp, which is represented as about sixteen inches high : it is square-shaped : the top corner farthest from the player is sharp: the other three corners are much rounded—so that the bottom of the little instrument forms almost a semicircle. Possibly this may be intended to represent a ceis : but then there is no player with a larger instrument near this harper as we might expect in case of a ceis.
The harp—as well as the timpan—was furnished with brass strings, as is seen by the explanation of “ ceis,” as meaning, in one of its applications, ‘a small pin which fastens the brazen string of the harp.’* The tuning-key was made with a wooden handle tipped with steel, like the modern piano-key. It was called crann-glésa (‘tuningwood’) ; and it was considered so important—inasmuch as the harp was silent without it—that provision was made in the Brehon Law—with penalties—for its prompt return in case the owner lent it. Both harp and timpan, when not in use, were kept in a case, commonly of otter skins, called a coimét (‘case’ or ‘ keeper ‘), and croti-boig (‘ harp-bag ‘) A harper was called cruitire (cruttera) : the word senmaire was sometimes applied to a musicion in general from senm (sound).
• Rev. cdt,. xx. i6. t Man. & Cust., II. 256.
Tam bo Fraifn, p. i.ji Silva Gad., 217, mid.
Still you may find it of interest and I think it the best my library can come up with on the subject.
While the modern Irish word for the harp is “clairsech”, “Cruit” is the old Irish word for it. Note the etymological similarities between the Irish word “cruittera” and Welsh “crwthr”.
Cruittera is made from two root words “Cruit” and “aire”. Aire basically meaning “one who tends to or oversees” This is the same “aire” that give us “Boaire” – cattle lord, and “Airechta” – lord of vengeance.
These pages are scanned excepts from P.W. Joyce’s “A social History of Ireland” pgs 573 – 580 - this was quickly OCRd so there are likely to be typos.
Warton, in his” History of English Poetry.” says :—“ There is sufficient evidence to prove that the “Welsh bards were early connected with the Irish. Even “so late as the eleventh century the practice continued “among the Welsh bards of receiving instruction in the “bardic profession [of poetry and music] from Ireland.” The Welsh records relate that Gryffith ap Conan, king of Wales, whose mother was an Irishwoman, and who was himself born in Ireland, brought over to Wales—about the year 1078—a number of skilled Irish musicians, who, in conference with the native bards, reformed the instrumental music of the Welsh.
But the strongest evidence of all—evidence quite conclusive as regards the particular period—is that of Giraldus Cambrensis, who seldom had a good word for anything Irish. He heard the Irish harpers in 1z85, and gives his experience as follows :
* Schubiger, Die Sangerschule St. Galleas, p. 33 Lanigan, irs. z85.They are incomparably more skilful than any other nation I have ever seen. For their manner of playing on these instruments, unlike that of the Britons [or Welsh] to which I am accustomed, is not slow and harsh, but lively and rapid, while the melody is both sweet and sprightly. It is astonishing that in so complex and rapid a movement of the fingers the musical proportions [as to time] can be preserved; and that throughout the difficult modulations on their various instruments, the harmony is completed with such a sweet rapidity. They enter into a movement and conclude it in so delicate a manner, and tinkle the little strings so sportively under the deeper tones of the bass strings - they delight so delicately and soothe with such gentleness,
vol. r., Diss. i. Harris’s Ware, Antiqq., 124.
The Irish had a small stringed instrument called a Timpan, which had only a few strings—from three to eight. It was played with a bow, or with both a bow and plectrum, or with the finger-nail; and the strings were probably stopped with the fingers of the left hand, like those of a violin or guitar. That the bow was used in playing it appears evident from a short quotation from the Brehon Laws given by O’Curry, in which it is stated that the timpanist used “a [bended] wand furnished with hair” and he gives another quotation (p. 364) that plainly points to the use of the finger-nail. This little instrument was evidently a great favourite, for we constantly meet with such expressions as the” sweet-stringed timpan.” Giraldus mentions the harp and the timpan by the names “ cithara” and” tympanum” : but the timpan is noticed in two native authorities much older: Cormac’s Glossary and Saltair na Rann. From the explanation of the name given by Cormac (p. 163), we see that the frame—like that of the harp—was made of willow, and that it had brass strings.
The instrument usually denoted—outside Ireland— by the Latin tympanum, or in its shortened form tympan, we know was a drum of some sort: and to Irish antiquarians it has been a puzzle how the word came to be applied in Ireland to a stringed instrument. Probably the Irish timpan was really a small flat tympanum or drum, with a short neck added, furnished with three or more strings, stretched across the flat face and along the neck, and tuned and regulated by pins or keys and a bridge—something like the modern guitar or banjo, but with the neck much shorter. The drum—with a few small openings in the side-—gave resonance ; and probably
• Er. Laws, v. 107, bot. t Man. & Cust., II. 363.
during the playing, the body, or the stretched membrane of the drum, was struck now and then with the hand, as players now occasionally strike the body of the guitar so that to some extent it still preserved the character of a drum. There can be hardly a doubt that Giraldus’s tympanum” was the Irish timpan ; and he would scarcely have given it that name unless it was really a drumshaped instrument—a drum furnished with neck and strings.
There was a small harp called a ceis [kesh], which was used to accompany the ordinary harp, and which will be again mentioned farther on (p. 587). On one panel of the north high cross of Castledermot is a figure seated playing on a small harp, which is represented as about sixteen inches high : it is square-shaped : the top corner farthest from the player is sharp: the other three corners are much rounded—so that the bottom of the little instrument forms almost a semicircle. Possibly this may be intended to represent a ceis : but then there is no player with a larger instrument near this harper as we might expect in case of a ceis.
The harp—as well as the timpan—was furnished with brass strings, as is seen by the explanation of “ ceis,” as meaning, in one of its applications, ‘a small pin which fastens the brazen string of the harp.’* The tuning-key was made with a wooden handle tipped with steel, like the modern piano-key. It was called crann-glésa (‘tuningwood’) ; and it was considered so important—inasmuch as the harp was silent without it—that provision was made in the Brehon Law—with penalties—for its prompt return in case the owner lent it. Both harp and timpan, when not in use, were kept in a case, commonly of otter skins, called a coimét (‘case’ or ‘ keeper ‘), and croti-boig (‘ harp-bag ‘) A harper was called cruitire (cruttera) : the word senmaire was sometimes applied to a musicion in general from senm (sound).
• Rev. cdt,. xx. i6. t Man. & Cust., II. 256.
Tam bo Fraifn, p. i.ji Silva Gad., 217, mid.
crwth & giraldis
Thanks for posting that bit, a great discussion. However, Giraldus Cambrensis (Gerald of Wales) lived in the 12th century. There is no question that there was communication between Ireland and Wales by his time. Your linguistic argument is the strongest here, I think. The similarity of other Welsh words to early Irish lends support to it as well. My uncle Gwynn's name is the Welsh form of the name Finn - Gwynn is the fair haired hero of the Mabinogian just like Finn is the hero of the Finn McCoul cycle, though the Finn cycle is probably later than the 5th century (it's not as old as the CuChullain sagas)
Um
yeah Comyn, it says right in the text that Cambresis experience was 1285 (actualy 1z85 do to ocr error :-)
Prior to that, Griffith ap Conan is listed as 1078.
The comment of focus is:
"Warton, in his” History of English Poetry.” says :—“ There is sufficient evidence to prove that the “Welsh bards were early connected with the Irish. Even “so late as the eleventh century the practice continued “among the Welsh bards of receiving instruction in the “bardic profession [of poetry and music] from Ireland.”
But the refereanced Warton does not say "how" early this connection is or elaborate on how early a connection between Irish and Welsh bards is.
Though, we do have account of druidic training centers where folks from afar came to learn from very early times as a cultural practice from very early times.
As to the similarity of Welsh and Irish, I should caution, these are related languages and many words will be similiar anyway...
however, Cruit and Crwth are near identical in sound and conceptualy represent a musical instruments.
I included the text on a Timpan and ceis, as these are "harp-like" instruments that might be closer to the Crwth.
Prior to that, Griffith ap Conan is listed as 1078.
The comment of focus is:
"Warton, in his” History of English Poetry.” says :—“ There is sufficient evidence to prove that the “Welsh bards were early connected with the Irish. Even “so late as the eleventh century the practice continued “among the Welsh bards of receiving instruction in the “bardic profession [of poetry and music] from Ireland.”
But the refereanced Warton does not say "how" early this connection is or elaborate on how early a connection between Irish and Welsh bards is.
Though, we do have account of druidic training centers where folks from afar came to learn from very early times as a cultural practice from very early times.
As to the similarity of Welsh and Irish, I should caution, these are related languages and many words will be similiar anyway...
however, Cruit and Crwth are near identical in sound and conceptualy represent a musical instruments.
I included the text on a Timpan and ceis, as these are "harp-like" instruments that might be closer to the Crwth.
heard in the future?
How did Cambrensis hear the harpers if he was already dead? (The Wikipedia article puts his death at 1223). There's a great page here at standing stones with an awesome line from Cambrensis about the Irish, that "...they were a bunch of idle louts who spent their time lazing about and growing their hair long", though his appreciation for their musicianship is noteworthy because otherwise he seems so disdainful of them. (He was a Norman Welsh lord whose family was busy taking over Ireland at the time)
Check out that link though, seriously.
Check out that link though, seriously.
Re: Crwth Questions
Excellent references and information. While searching for more info on the Timpan I came across this page specifically on Irish instruments.
http://www.libraryireland.com/IrishMusic/III.php
I've quoted the most germain info below.
Reading the rest of the page it looks like there were many variations on harp/lyre/bowed lyre/plucked lyre instruments making "instrument lineage" difficult to decifer.
http://www.libraryireland.com/IrishMusic/III.php
I've quoted the most germain info below.
Unfortunately, the writer doesn't identify this "Irish poet who flourished 400 years before Christ", but the rest of his information DOES seem to squarely nail down the use of the Crwth in Ireland to the life time of St. Venantius."The CRUIT is called crwth by the Welsh, and crowde by the English. Originally a small harp or lyre, plucked with the fingers (as in the case of the Roman fidicula), it was subsequently played with a bow, and is mentioned by an Irish poet who flourished about four hundred years before Christ. It is justly regarded as the progenitor of the Crotta, the German Rotte, and the Italian Rota. St. Venantius Fortunatus (the great Christian poet, A.D. 530-609) calls the Cruit a CROTTA; and we learn from Gerbert that it was an oblong-shaped instrument, with a neck and finger-board, having six strings, of which four were placed on the fingerboard and two outside it--the two open strings representing treble G, with its lower octave. In fact, it was a small harp, and was generally played resting on the knee, or sometimes placed on a table before the performer, after the manner of the zither."
Reading the rest of the page it looks like there were many variations on harp/lyre/bowed lyre/plucked lyre instruments making "instrument lineage" difficult to decifer.
Re: Crwth Questions
Im aware of Cambrensis' disdain for the Irish - which is absolutely why when he gives any sort of praise its noteworthy... I've got his commentary in a peguin classic paperback around here somewhere if you want to read the primary source...
(Which reminds me.. I've got a library list of all the books I own in an excell file ... I plan on converting it to a more web friendly version and post it here on the site when i can.)
Regardless, this is inconsequetial date to the true discussion at hand.. its an OCR error.. the date in the book actually lists 1185 not 1285 - I assumed the "z" substitude for a "2" try not to give me more work then nessasary :-P
(Which reminds me.. I've got a library list of all the books I own in an excell file ... I plan on converting it to a more web friendly version and post it here on the site when i can.)
Regardless, this is inconsequetial date to the true discussion at hand.. its an OCR error.. the date in the book actually lists 1185 not 1285 - I assumed the "z" substitude for a "2" try not to give me more work then nessasary :-P
Crwth Truth Forsooth!
Great link...
Considering how many varieties and body styles there are of modern guitars, it would seem to be a likely expectation of a high degree of variation in musical instrument's body styles in an age of much less standardization and one of individual craftsmenship as a means of production.
So when does your construction start? or the CD get released? :-)
Considering how many varieties and body styles there are of modern guitars, it would seem to be a likely expectation of a high degree of variation in musical instrument's body styles in an age of much less standardization and one of individual craftsmenship as a means of production.
So when does your construction start? or the CD get released? :-)